February 6, 2002
Subject: Alma Lopez/Pedro Romero dialogue
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:20:16 -0700
From: Alma Lopez <almalopez@earthlink.net>
To: AztlanNet <AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com>
References: 1
Pedro,
I must say that I am surprised how you completely missed my point with the
quotes by Ehrenberg and GomezPena. My point was simply that not only women,
but also men reinterpret the Virgen of Guadalupe.
If you want to obsess over sexuality, it's your trip. But just like men and
women reinterpret the image, so do men and women of all sexualities, including
heterosexual women.
Although we may be seeing the same image, each of our perspectives depends
on where we are standing. It is obvious that we are looking from completely
different worlds. You seem to be looking at the image of the Virgen of Guadalupe
as a Catholic religious image... an image of devotion... you seem to honestly
and without question believe the story of her apparition. On the other hand,
although I grew up Catholic, I am culturally and ethnically Catholic like
GomezPena.
That is a huge difference. At this point, I feel like we should just admit
that we see things differently, and that each of us has a right to believe
as we do, and move on...
Subject: AztlanNet: Alma Lopez/Pedro Romero
dialogue
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:16:13 EST
From: Sedeno7@aol.com
Reply-To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
CC: kaytiejohnson@yahoo.com, joeyspouch2004@yahoo.com, Gmendoza4@aol.com,
NAFTAZTC@aol.com, Alfredo@debatuc.com, xocorro@hotmail.com, happyhermit@earthlink.net,
pachuko2001@webtv.net, TraveisaBlue@aol.com, oromano@tqsbooks.com, magu4u@hotmail.com,
rosamwill@aol.com, almalopez@earthlink.netalmalopez@earthlink.net
(Alma Lopez) wrote:
>>>If you want to obsess over sexuality, it's your trip.
Alma, you began this dialogue by proposing an
objective which I accepted: to understand art specific to ChicanA; not Chicano/a
art in general. Au contraire, m'lle, it is you who are obsessing over
sexuality, not me.
It's Alma's "trip" we are discussing here, proposed by her
in her posting Feb 2.
>you seem to honestly and without question
believe the story of her apparition. On the other hand, although I grew
up Catholic, I am culturally and ethnically Catholic like GomezPena
Alma, racial minds differ; we all are
created free to think differently and to differ in beliefs. The spirit, though,
is identical and ONE, in each of us. A universal theology is impossible,
but a universal experience IS possible, and is necessary. Such is the
religion of love which I believe, without question.
What matters is how much faith we have in our beliefs, no? because beliefs
can come and go and change in life. Do our beliefs attain a level of faith,
to dominate our decisions in life, is the ultimate lesson, I think and "obsess"
about, in life.
Please refer to my posting on Secular
Totalitarianism which stated; "religion has become more and more a nominal
influence, largely a ritualistic exercise. The majority of professed Christians
of Western civilization are unwittingly actual secularists."
Is this what you mean by "growing up Catholic"? culturally and ethnically?
Been there, done that.
>You seem to be looking at the image of the
Virgen of Guadalupe as a Catholic religious image... an image of devotion...
No, I am not looking at the Image as a "Catholic"
religious image. I understand the Image as a cosmic revelation which
spoke to the indigenous and which was later controlled by the Catholic institution.
I accept Her message as one coming from a compassionate and completely liberated
deity, much as the cult of Mexicas devoted to Her on Tepeyac did before the
Church and criollos began to "snap" to Her power and manipulate
Her image for their agendas, for centuries.
You are
correct in referring to It as "an image of devotion". Yes, an image
of God's devotion to humanity. But the objective you proposed
for this dialogue is to look at Chicana artists' relation to la Virgen, right?
Some of Chicana's images ARE images of devotion TO Her and Her
message, i.e. devotional art. Some are not, though. Some
images are issue-oriented and use the Image, or parts thereof, as a
vehicle with which to communicate political and social agendas, or to work
out personal therapy even. These I will respect but not necessarily
agree with the function. Some images, though, might merely function
as pot-shots at notoriety, a handy stepping-stone in a world of art
glamour and material ambition. These I find hard to respect as substantive
works.
>It is obvious that we are looking from completely
different worlds. .....you seem to honestly and without question believe the
story of her apparition.
Alma, yes, it's pretty obvious about "the
world" thing. "I might be crazy, but I'm not insane. Only
"the world" is insane." is what I say. . But I
do have questions about the Catholic doctrines attached to the story, e.g.
I don't believe in the Virgin Birth (mainly because it repudiates Jesus'
declaration that he was the Son of Man ). La Lupe's apparition
is apparently to you a figment of mythology, a story to be referenced to as
one might derive from a work by Shakespeare or Neruda. I would be interested
to know what Santa Barazza believes in this regard, also Yolanda Lopez. Again,
please refer to Clarissa Pinkola Estes' "Guadalupe: the Path of the Broken
Heart" in Castillo's book. This describes a little of the world
or sphere I wish to look from.
On your website, you state the images of La
Sirena and La Lupe "appeared" to you. Please clarify what that means.
I know of a number of people, including a gay friend of mine, who have
told me La Lupe has appeared to them. Not the Image, la Persona herself.
She was unaccompanied by La Sirena, who exists only in myths, on loteria cards,
and possibly , in Alma's surreal and sensual world of mythology. "Who
has ears to hear, let them hear, eyes to see......" is all I can
say.
>That is a huge difference. At this
point, I feel like we should just admit that we see things differently, and
that each of us has a right to believe as we do, and move on...
Alma, what do you intend to do? I think you
do AztlanNetters a great disservice if you intend to cop-out on this dialogue
soon and easily. Do you have Santa Barazza's e-mail address ( I haven't
talked to her since she was in Chicago) or Yolanda Lopez'. Please fwd
this to them. Maybe they are more committed to discussing their
work and Chicana art than you are.
Submitted wtih all due respect, Pedro Romero Sedeno mfa
Subject: Re: AztlanNet: Alma Lopez/Pedro Romero
dialogue
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:23:13 -0700
From: Alma Lopez <almalopez@earthlink.net>
To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
CC: kaytiejohnson@yahoo.com, joeyspouch2004@yahoo.com, Gmendoza4@aol.com,
NAFTAZTC@aol.com, Alfredo@debatuc.com, xocorro@hotmail.com, happyhermit@earthlink.net,
pachuko2001@webtv.net, TraveisaBlue@aol.com, oromano@tqsbooks.com, magu4u@hotmail.com,
rosamwill@aol.com
References: 1
Sedeno7@aol.com wrote:
>
> almalopez@earthlink.net (Alma Lopez) wrote:
> >>>If you want to obsess over sexuality, it's your trip.
>
> Alma, you began this dialogue by proposing an objective which I accepted:
to understand art specific to ChicanA; not Chicano/a art in general. Au contraire,
m'lle, it is you who are obsessing over sexuality, not me. It's Alma's
"trip" we are discussing here, proposed by her in her posting Feb
2.
Pedro, this discussion on this list didn't begin
with me a few weeks ago on feb 2... it's been going on for nearly a year.
I just wanted for both of us to acknowledge that we are looking at one image very differently, and to respect that. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me, and I can live with that.